Should you buy slabbed coins or not?

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6th April 2010, 03:41 PM
marshland

Should you buy slabbed coins or not?

Slabbed coins are a comparatively new invention to coin collecting.

Quite a few slabbed coins are offered for sale on E-Bid.

Legitimate dealers submit coins to specialist firms who examine the coin verify that it is genuine and grade it.

The coin is then secured in a plastic slab to protect if from decay.

The coin has a certficate with it's grading and authenticity so you can be sure that it is not counterfeit although no doubt counterfeiters will soon be producing counterfeit slabbed coins!

The debate amongst coin collectors is that while it is satisfying to have a genuine coin that will not decay or need protection many collectors miss the thrill of actually being able to touch a real coin.

The choice is yours although I suspect that slabbed coins are here to stay.
I hope that this will help buyers new to coin collecting.

Peter
6th April 2010, 05:32 PM
TiasTreasures

Quote:

Originally Posted by marshland

The coin has a certficate with it's grading and authenticity so you can be sure that it is not counterfeit although no doubt counterfeiters will soon be producing counterfeit slabbed coins!

According to Coin World Magazine, counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs are being produced, starting at least four years ago. They had some articles with pictures, pointing out the minute differences between the authentic and fake ones.

Collectors were advised to be extremely cautious about buying coins, slabbed or not, especially if the seller is in China, where these fakes are being manufactured.
5th May 2010, 02:05 AM
mpcusa

Depends on if your planning on resale values!
5th May 2010, 11:56 AM
poppa501

I don't usually buy slabbed coins. I only have 2 at the moment. If I need one for my collection, I will buy it and bust it out for my album. I'm lucky enough to have a reputable local dealer thru which I buy most of my high-dollar coins. Got a nice 14D Lincoln cent from him not slabbed and he is now looking for an 09S VDB for me. I can usually get non slabbed coins at a lower price. Since I need them for my collection, I can't see paying extra for the plastic. Nothing beats personal knowledge however. On key dates, I know most if not all the markers to look for in a genuine coin. JMHO
24th June 2010, 12:47 AM
poorrichardstuff

Quote:

Originally Posted by marshland

Slabbed coins are a comparatively new invention to coin collecting.

Quite a few slabbed coins are offered for sale on E-Bid.

Legitimate dealers submit coins to specialist firms who examine the coin verify that it is genuine and grade it.

The coin is then secured in a plastic slab to protect if from decay.

The coin has a certficate with it's grading and authenticity so you can be sure that it is not counterfeit although no doubt counterfeiters will soon be producing counterfeit slabbed coins!

The debate amongst coin collectors is that while it is satisfying to have a genuine coin that will not decay or need protection many collectors miss the thrill of actually being able to touch a real coin.

The choice is yours although I suspect that slabbed coins are here to stay.
I hope that this will help buyers new to coin collecting.

Peter

As a collector with ~50 years experience, having thousands of slabbed coins, dating back to when the original slab was offered for precious Numismatic material. I can generally state that the slabbed coin is a "feel good" invention which has little advantage to the average collector, a greater advantage to dealers who are often the intermediaries/buyers, and a great source of income for the companies that encapsulate both original and modified coins, knowingly offering altered and dishonest products which commanded a premium for dealers (e.g. "first strike", "doctored coins") which have been identified in litigation. The coins are graded to varying non-technical standards, with varying uniformity for any specific TPG, and little uniformity between competitors, where companies now grade the graders, Buyers generally will pay little, if any premium for the certified products (e.g. my current offering of 1Oz. 24kt. PCGS MS69 Gold coin offered repeatedly here at less than melt value, without a bid) and dealers often offer less than bullion value for "Premium Coins", criticizing the quality of the certification by using the varying established "standards". I've personally lost more money on certified coins, than on raw coins. A collector should not expect to recover a premium for a "slabbed" coin, but only realize that the slab protects the coin from mechanical (unlike chemical) damage. I believe that the original patent holder for the slab thought his invention would revolutionize coin collecting, but I believe was driven from business by hypocritical individuals with a biased agenda, costing investors of the original product great losses, so the longevity/value of this product is questionable.
2nd January 2011, 11:05 AM
TexasJack

Just the FACTS please.

I find this post to be a little misinformative to readers. Your statement of being a collector for over 50 years with your associated comments lead me to believe you are a great wordsmith, but maybe a little light on the facts. You make comments to the fact that TPG companies encapsulate coins which provide a "great source of income." What you fail to mention is the guarantee that the top-tier grading companies, such as PCGS and NGC, back their grading with a money guarantee. Once a coin is encapsulated by one of these companies, they guarantee the owner of that coin the current market value for the grade if upon verification that they have indeed encapsulated a counterfeit coin. ANY other self-slabing company IMHO besides these two are a waste of time. I would not invest any money in their grades.

If I have purchased, let's say, a MS70 1893-O Morgan Silver Dollar encapsulated in a NGC slab and I determine this coin to possibly be counterfeit, I can send the coin into NGC for verification (at no cost). If it is determined that indeed the coin is a counterfeit and the slab has not been breached and that NGC graders were unable to determine this prior to the encapsulation. NGC will purchase the coin at the current FMV. Can you get this from a dealer or any other TPG company or a dealer selling raw coins? I do not think so. You state ... The coins are graded to varying non-technical standards, with varying uniformity for any specific TPG...,. This is odd, are you not aware of the technology of digital imaging used by PCGS and NGC? I find this hard to believe coming from such an astute collector.
Again another statement you make ... but only realize that the slab protects the coin from mechanical (unlike chemical) damage. What are you saying????? Did you create the patent for encapsulation slabs for Numimatic items? My research shows the sonic seal on these slabs are airtite, that's chemical also. I just find it amazing, some of the posts I read on this forum. Most folks here are just asking for honest, simple answers, not obloviation. Just give folks straight, honest answers and leave out any biased opinions. Let them reach their own conclusions. This is a great site and folks want to enjoy their time here and hopefully pick up some good tips. JMHO
14th March 2011, 02:21 AM
princeofwaldo

Re: Just the FACTS please.

Inclined to agree that 3rd party grading is of dubious added value in and of itself. For whatever reason, it seems most collectors have become much more enamored with the slabs grade than with the implied statement of authenticity that the grading services provide. At least for me, I consider my own opionion of a coins state of preservation to be far more important than what some hack in a grading room thinks. But I will admit in a heart beat that the grading services are generally more reliable at authenticating coins than I am. That's not to say I can not identify a counterfeit coin on my own, but especially struck counterfeit coins that are highly deceptive; --the 3rd party graders truly earn their fees just being able to identify these.
22nd March 2011, 03:25 AM
poorrichardstuff

A Biased Evaluation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasJack

I find this post to be a little misinformative to readers. Your statement of being a collector for over 50 years with your associated comments lead me to believe you are a great wordsmith, but maybe a little light on the facts. You make comments to the fact that TPG companies encapsulate coins which provide a "great source of income." What you fail to mention is the guarantee that the top-tier grading companies, such as PCGS and NGC, back their grading with a money guarantee. Once a coin is encapsulated by one of these companies, they guarantee the owner of that coin the current market value for the grade if upon verification that they have indeed encapsulated a counterfeit coin. ANY other self-slabing company IMHO besides these two are a waste of time. I would not invest any money in their grades.

If I have purchased, let's say, a MS70 1893-O Morgan Silver Dollar encapsulated in a NGC slab and I determine this coin to possibly be counterfeit, I can send the coin into NGC for verification (at no cost). If it is determined that indeed the coin is a counterfeit and the slab has not been breached and that NGC graders were unable to determine this prior to the encapsulation. NGC will purchase the coin at the current FMV. Can you get this from a dealer or any other TPG company or a dealer selling raw coins? I do not think so. You state ... The coins are graded to varying non-technical standards, with varying uniformity for any specific TPG...,. This is odd, are you not aware of the technology of digital imaging used by PCGS and NGC? I find this hard to believe coming from such an astute collector.
Again another statement you make ... but only realize that the slab protects the coin from mechanical (unlike chemical) damage. What are you saying????? Did you create the patent for encapsulation slabs for Numimatic items? My research shows the sonic seal on these slabs are airtite, that's chemical also. I just find it amazing, some of the posts I read on this forum. Most folks here are just asking for honest, simple answers, not obloviation. Just give folks straight, honest answers and leave out any biased opinions. Let them reach their own conclusions. This is a great site and folks want to enjoy their time here and hopefully pick up some good tips. JMHO

As a self proclaimed "member of pcgs, ngc, anacs and texas numismatic association.", is it any wonder why a layman would subjectively dispute facts(?) that have been objectively presented by many other than myself, with substantiating evidence.

I, and many others have posted opinions/evidence on what I believe to be a relatively objective independent unbiased web site, namely CoinTalk. My moniker on that site is IMRICH.

If you view mine, and many other posts on the aforementioned site which has membership of numerous accredited scientists of varying disciplines, numismatists, dealers, and members/employees of the "top tier" TPG certifying organizations, I believe that an objective "open-minded" individual will see that subterfuge isn't likely to be accepted without objective challenges.

On the aforementioned site I've posted photos which will substantiate that which I affirm/believe, without having received objective challenges. Many others have also posted supporting images. I believe my stated truths(?) are self evident upon viewing the discussion/images.

A guarantee that can only be verified/substantiated by those initially erring, without unbiased independent adjudication, is worth the value of that initially received, IMHO valueless.

I could supply an in-depth experienced scientific explanation of chemical vapor migration through an ultrasonic bond of irregular plastic surfaces, with evidence of same, but believe the exercise would be futile.

I trust you might consider viewing a myriad of posts and images on the aforementioned site, and possibly objectively reconsider your understandings.

Just my (and many others) humble opinions, worth at least the price paid for same.

RICH
22nd March 2011, 03:41 AM
TiasTreasures

Re: A Biased Evaluation?

"What you fail to mention is the guarantee that the top-tier grading companies, such as PCGS and NGC, back their grading with a money guarantee. Once a coin is encapsulated by one of these companies, they guarantee the owner of that coin the current market value for the grade if upon verification that they have indeed encapsulated a counterfeit coin."

Will these companies honor their guarantee if the slab itself is counterfeit? Please see my original post regarding counterfeits being manufactured in China. I do think Coin World Magazine is recognized as a reputable source of information regarding coins.

It isn't enough to recognize a counterfeit coin anymore, we also have to be able to recognize a counterfeit slab and certificate of authenticity.
22nd March 2011, 02:52 PM
poorrichardstuff

Counterfeit "Top Tier" TPG Slabs

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiasTreasures

"What you fail to mention is the guarantee that the top-tier grading companies, such as PCGS and NGC, back their grading with a money guarantee. Once a coin is encapsulated by one of these companies, they guarantee the owner of that coin the current market value for the grade if upon verification that they have indeed encapsulated a counterfeit coin."

Will these companies honor their guarantee if the slab itself is counterfeit? Please see my original post regarding counterfeits being manufactured in China. I do think Coin World Magazine is recognized as a reputable source of information regarding coins.

It isn't enough to recognize a counterfeit coin anymore, we also have to be able to recognize a counterfeit slab and certificate of authenticity.

I believe that "TexasJack" was correct in his statements concerning the possibility of the "Top Tier" TPG encapsulating a counterfeit coin, and their quality of guarantee if this should happen. From my experience, it is highly unlikely that these firms would "slab" a counterfeit coin, and I'm certain that they would honor their guarantee, inasmuch as the possibility of this condition is very remote.

Having many years experience handling high value coins, I've purchased coins of questionable manufacture, and reviewed same with Numismatic appraiser associates, none of us being able to properly substantiate authenticity. One coin being a 1909 Gold $20 Double Eagle, seemingly meeting all the criteria for a MS67 grade, but didn't have adequate "bag rub" or "marks" which were normally viewed on a coin of this type/vintage. Upon submission, the coin was returned without comment other than unable to certify.

I believe that legally you'll find that the TPG have no responsibility in authenticating or guarantying coins housed in questionable holders, and likely would return as unable to authenticate, rather than proceed with legally mandated confiscation, which potentially may create liability complications.

I suggest that "Caveat Emptor" is the prevalent axiom or principle in commerce today.

RICH