38 degree petition to stop goverment snooping

[sidthelamp]

That's the question, isn't it? Does this really give them any more powers than they have already? With the appropriate legal paperwork the police (etc) can already look at the stored information about who we contact via the various methods. It seems to me - based solely on the unsubstantiated information that has so far been slopped around - that the only difference is that They want to be able to do the same thing a bit quicker. If that IS the case, and the appropriate safeguards are in place regarding who can't or can't access the information and what they can or can't do with it, then I can't see much to complain about. It would be of enormous help to the security services to be able to trace the communications of a suspected terrorist 'in real time' as opposed to piecing it all together some weeks or months later. The big issue is just how far the legislation goes with regard to who can do what and when.

" the security services to be able to trace the communications of a suspected terrorist 'in real time' as opposed to piecing it all together some weeks or months"

it is a rather big assumption of yours that a terrorist , there cell, or organized crime would use normal hard wire or non wired forms of communication, if these new laws do come in do you really think any of the above who are serious in what they hope to achive would use the means of communication as stated or would switch to a more covert means of communicating which would in effect make any new laws redundant, and would at the same time endorse the fears and concerns of normal people, because there really would be no other use for the powers granted, it would also have the effect of driving further underground organized crime and terrorists with little prospect of ever "listening in" the law as it stands allows for listening in to suspects with a approval from the home office minister, if the law was changed we would all be suspects for any conversation " they" deemed a threat this thread for instance, we are innocent until proved guilty as the law stands at the moment, i would not like to see this switched.
"

[sidthelamp]

Anything that gives more power to the state under the "its for our protection" and "if you got nothing to hide" means we slip deeper into the Totalitarian state the greasy palm over dinner donation back scratching millionaires of the 7% club who rule our lives would love to see...those "we are all in it together" and "understand how hard things are" have no clue about my life and around 93% of other people......It was about 100 years when these types of politicans introduced a mental health bill so they could lock up unmarried mothers claimed they were deviants,,,,,so give them any powers to snoop more into our live and it will not be only Union members/officals/leaders, political activist, human rights campainers, enviromentalist....but anyone those with money or position dont like....best practice saying Bus, Bath,Cup Glass because after the rest have been sorted they may think about anyone who sounds from "up north" need sorting next....


了解

i agree with all you say

there has never been a time in history over the last 40 years were your ability to "do for yourself" has been eroded by back door legislation brought about by self interested lobbiests namely big business enviromentalists, ect ect taken on board by goverments of the day legislation passed without the say of the people often with no parlimentry debate. the pre curser to all this was the bull we were fed when we joined at the time the so called common market which in effect signed away a countrys rights to govern in a democratic way the ball has been rolled slowly with the effect of a ever tighting of the noose around every ones necks,

[damian_steele]

it is a rather big assumption of yours that a terrorist , there cell, or organized crime would use normal hard wire or non wired forms of communication

No, it isn't. Even minimal research can show quite clearly that all sorts of morons have been caught because they used normal methods of communication.

... if these new laws do come in do you really think any of the above who are serious in what they hope to achive would use the means of communication as stated or would switch to a more covert means of communicating which would in effect make any new laws redundant, and would at the same time endorse the fears and concerns of normal people, because there really would be no other use for the powers granted, it would also have the effect of driving further underground organized crime and terrorists with little prospect of ever "listening in"

People (criminals/terrorists etc) need to communicate. Those with enough resources will find alternative and/or clever methods, those without will be stuck with whatever method is available to them. Some will get caught because of this.

... if the law was changed we would all be suspects for any conversation " they" deemed a threat this thread for instance, we are innocent until proved guilty as the law stands at the moment ..

Now who's making assumptions?

[sidthelamp]

"No, it isn't. Even minimal research can show quite clearly that all sorts of morons have been caught because they used normal methods of communication. "

were talking about terrorists and organized crime these people they are driven by greed and or idealism they plan and execute what there doing hardley the work of the local morons which means advocating what your saying will drive these people further underground which makes any new laws redundant that is the premis of the anouncment

"People (criminals/terrorists etc) need to communicate. Those with enough resources will find alternative and/or clever methods, those without will be stuck with whatever method is available to them. Some will get caught because of this."

so you agree they will use covert means of communications which makes the whole idea of the new proposed laws redundant

"Now who's making assumptions?"

there is no assumption on my part if your pulled in for what you have said your put in a posistion were you will have to defend yourself before you have committed a crime therefore your guilty to proven innocent which is a complete reversal of common law in the uk thats the whole point of the proposed new laws im surprised you or any one else would defend such a move, i have already said which you failed to quote, the ability to listen in on known suspects is already available, giving powers to make us all potential suspects would mean one sentence that they interpret to be "against the state which would be a assumption at best. would mean every person you talk to would come under there survailence your online payments to who and for what, your funding methods,ie bank accounts, even your political bent would be known, all because the real moron sitting behind a screen decides you said some thing wrong in there eyes, nothing will remain private, is open to abuse, information gathering will also have a ££££££££££$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ incentive and will corupt and cause to corupt any one involved even on a stastisical bases. the whole idea of a democratic state is to serve the people not to spy and turn the people into suspects .

its slightly ironic we go to war to defend human rights ie iraq weapons of mass destruction this we were assured was the case in iraq by are information gathering services and mouthed to parliment by TB so we killed thousands of people murdered there soverien leader left the country in a worse state it was in before we got there all on the premis of information gathering. in other words Damian the british people were lied too on the premis of information that could never be proved existed.

in a alternative universe just imagine a guy chatting away about rewiring his own house suddenly the thought police tune in to his conversation you can just imagine the senario my god this guy is thinking of rewiring his own house he does not have twenty five degrees in basic common sense, he could burn his house down his neibours house down he would be saving a lot of money, he would be stopping the local sparky from doing his monopolised job send the boys round pull him in this is wrong we cant have people "doing for themselves " far fetched Damian ?

[damian_steele]

Sid, what you are talking about is beyond the scope of what has been announced. The proposed plans for discussion state that the information intercepted will NOT include the details of the communication itself, but it will record who the communication was between. This, as I already posted above, is an extension of powers that are already available. As proposed it is NOT like the American system where every word is scanned to check for keyword usage.

So, yes, your post is far fetched.

[sidthelamp]

Sid, what you are talking about is beyond the scope of what has been announced. The proposed plans for discussion state that the information intercepted will NOT include the details of the communication itself, but it will record who the communication was between. This, as I already posted above, is an extension of powers that are already available. As proposed it is NOT like the American system where every word is scanned to check for keyword usage.

So, yes, your post is far fetched.

police, message to GCHQ

could you please provide a list of emails phone calls ect of a Mr Damian @rewire .com

GCHQ

certainly sir

he phoned such and such at 10.00pm
ect ect ect

he is very active on ebid forums

but we cant tell you the content of any of the above conversations.

police.

thank you for your fast reply

its ok we can access ebid forums with just a log in or just view so thanks for the heads up

i dont think theres anything far fetched with my above example if they suspect you or me for anything with the new proposed laws they are given information were you are at any given time in cyber space [ which they cant do at the moment unless they have permission] then they can read the content of your posts here.

do you really think when they have the ability to know every person you have contacted by any means they wont just look at what your saying your one click away from being hacked ! or the content is passed to them by GCHQ who are not goverened by the new laws , and every one you talked to will be under there gaze!

[PATRIOT73]

Anything that gives more power to the state under the "its for our protection" and "if you got nothing to hide" means we slip deeper into the Totalitarian state the greasy palm over dinner donation back scratching millionaires of the 7% club who rule our lives would love to see...those "we are all in it together" and "understand how hard things are" have no clue about my life and around 93% of other people......It was about 100 years when these types of politicans introduced a mental health bill so they could lock up unmarried mothers claimed they were deviants,,,,,so give them any powers to snoop more into our live and it will not be only Union members/officals/leaders, political activist, human rights campainers, enviromentalist....but anyone those with money or position dont like....best practice saying Bus, Bath,Cup Glass because after the rest have been sorted they may think about anyone who sounds from "up north" need sorting next....


了解

that basically sums it up.................the rich dont like it.............nimby springs to mind

[MPS16]

that basically sums it up.................the rich dont like it.............nimby springs to mind

Its not about the British Class Structure, or Money.

Its about basic freedom.

Freedom of thought, and freedom of speech.

Which we seem to have lost in the England.

[MagnetsAndHangers]

I don't believe any government should have the right to read private e mails or similar private correspondence of any kind whatsoever.

Best wishes for many sales to all,

Wonder if they will have the ability to monitor the voices in my head?

I better tell these voices to be careful when they speak to me just in case.

[BLOXBOOKS]

Its not about the British Class Structure, or Money.

Its about basic freedom.

Freedom of thought, and freedom of speech.

Which we seem to have lost in the England.

Yes we have, a startling example of how bad things were, and I feel it has got worse.........about the time I did my exams and left, I tried to buy a particular record (plastic round things that were used the last century) this item seemed to have charted (lp chart) but I could only find a blank space at that particular position in the big retail stores.... I went to a small record shop and stunning young woman who worked there (she was fit, but like I was really young and you know...she was very nice, sweet and friendly....) in a secret whipering way and hand jesture called me closer....she told me that she had put a few records aways that she knew I would want, and went on to say the vice squad had been and took the rest of the albums away!!!!, well for sure I bought them ( I always had some money because I ws a glass collector at a big labour club 5-6 or even 7 nights a week)...

Yes it was political stuff I had bought, not just music, but the booklet with information, further reading and things that had happend to people who wrote this....It was a different view, and non violent but disturbed the Thatcher folk so much that they tried to put the lid on them, even mentioned in parliament....this was a puzzle to me, and got me thinking and paying attention....Things just got worse and worse, (some said the flood of cheap drugs at that time was.....well ok not going there, but all those politically minded young folk started more dependant on other things as the people guarding our borders look in other directions) I eventually bought a one way ticket and left this place......and now its all starting again, but this type of thing is bigger than any sus laws, we all get banged in the bag....The crap they will tell us about "Safe Guards" and whatever to only target the "Bad People" is a joke, our institutions of law and order are broken and serve an elite few (Benifit Cheats cost about £1billion a year, Tax Evation £20 billion Tax Avoidance £70 Billion guess who they go for most of the time)....The way we are heading will make China, Iran and North Korea look like open democracies...Some people may say the folk in power at this time are rotten to the core and feather the nest of their particular social group, that is bloated privileged no understanding or empathy for the working person/poor people...me I dont know I just look at goings on and think to myself!!!!....

So what was the question...can we trust the state to do the right thing and do what is best for us all in a fair open and transparent way...is that it, is that the point, is that what we need to do, trust...the people in number 10..... Hey let me think about that one...


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