I am 'deeply unpatriotic', says Nick Clegg

[squern]

The Conservative Manifesto for the June 1970 General Election stated that a Conservative Government would seek entry into the European Economic Community only if suitable terms could be negotiated. Entry was subsequently agreed by the UK Parliament when the negotiated terms were put before it for a vote. The UK did not suddenly join the EEC by some unexpected Act of Divine Intervention. It joined the EEC through the standard British democratic processes. The British electorate voted in a Conservative Government that said it would seek to negotiate best terms. The British Parliament that was voted in by the British electorate voted collectively to join the EEC. That process is called democracy in action.

http://www.conservative-party.net/ma...anifesto.shtml

There are issues around the way the EU operates today and its future direction. Unfortunately in the UK we do not seem to be able to have decent debates about this based on facts so all we get is the constant complaining based upon perception that is not always correct. Whether you like him or not, listening and understanding what Nick Clegg has to say in a respectful way would add to the quality of the debate over the EU.

Citizens of the United Kingdom voted to join the European Economic Community - a trading bloc.
We did not vote for closer political union with a federated Europe, controlled from Brussels. We did not vote for legal controls on social policy, originating from outside the UK

No voter in the UK has had the option to express a democratic opinion on political, legal or economic union with Europe.

If Cameron keeps his promise (unlikely, since he broke the last "cast-iron" promise), it will be the first time EVER, that UK voters have had an option to express a view through the ballot box.

As for Clegg, nobody pays any attention to him anyway as he can't be trusted. So let's not give him political credibility by attaching any importance to anything he says.

[Pink_Panther]

I think you may be confusing the Commission (a civil service) with the Parliament (elected). At the moment I must admit I'd be hard pressed to think of any Parliament that does not have a Civil Service. The European Parliament can and does take the Commission to task when necessary; I am not foolish enough to expect it to be perfect. I seem to remember the whole Commission resigning a few years back after pressure from the Parliament. I can never remember our Civil Service doing that.

However, these things are of small account. When we had the referendum of 1975 we were all aware that the intent was for it to get ever closer, so the European Union was no surprise. Well over 60% of voters turned out for that referendum. Fewer than 25% turn out for MEP elections. This is not through disaffection with the EU. This is run of the mill stuff in UK politics. Huge numbers refrain from voting in General Elections as well. Of course, they still moan about what "they" do, whether "they" be in Westminster or Strasbourg. It's rather pointless calling for referenda under such conditions. Much better, in my opinion, to whip up some enthusiasm about elections than to encourage people to turn out once every forty years, jerk a knee, and then start another 40 year campaign!

I assumed we'd all learned quite recently that the real problem in this Western world of ours is created by the financial institutions, not by Strasbourg or Brussels or Washington D.C. Until these boys are fully accountable we are going to continue going from boom to bust. However, the flag is waved and we are told, by patriotic politicians that we need to be at the centre of banking. I wonder how true that actually is; and I wonder what really brought about the demise of our manufacturing base, on either side of the Atlantic - and why.

During the last recession we had many British workers going to Germany to get work. I do not recall a political party being formed here to fight against that. "Not in my back yard" seems to be getting more and more common here though.

Earlier today I went out to buy a power tool, one of those small sanders. I bought one in the mid price range as it seemed solidly built and had the functions I wanted. I could not see where it was made, but the print was small. I assumed it was from the Far East as many of these things are now. Having reached home with it and put it through its paces I was impressed by the build, quality and control I had over it. I sat down with a magnifying glass..."Made in Germany". There is still hope that we shall not cut off noses to spite faces...

I seem to remember the 1975 referendum as a vote to join the common market (as it was then called)
This was all in large print so to speak!

The signing away of our sovereignty was in the small print!
Patriotism was used to convince us that we would be better off with a free market.

Now we find we are being dictated to by the EU!

That is NOT what I voted for in spirit.


I feel as if I've been conned by an unpatriotic scoundrel.

[astral276]

I seem to remember the 1975 referendum as a vote to join the common market (as it was then called)

No, as I said above... that referendum was to decide if we should remain in the EEC. We had as already been enrolled with no referendum. Just as our national independence has been signed away to the EU with us having no say.

[cambrensis]

I seem to remember the 1975 referendum as a vote to join the common market (as it was then called)
This was all in large print so to speak!

Sorry, but this is incorrect. We were already members of the Common Market. We voted to stay in not to join!

The signing away of our sovereignty was in the small print!
Patriotism was used to convince us that we would be better off with a free market.

We joined a Free Market in 1960 (EFTA) and left before the referendum as there was duplication. EFTA now has an agreement with the EU.

Now we find we are being dictated to by the EU!

In actual fact it is not possible for the EU to dictate. Any national government may decide not to comply with a decision of the elected Parliament .Of course, the country concerned might get drummed out of the brownies...

That is NOT what I voted for in spirit.

That goes without saying...

I feel as if I've been conned by an unpatriotic scoundrel.[/QUOTE]

​...

[Pink_Panther]

Sorry, but this is incorrect. We were already members of the Common Market. We voted to stay in not to join!



We joined a Free Market in 1960 (EFTA) and left before the referendum as there was duplication. EFTA now has an agreement with the EU.



In actual fact it is not possible for the EU to dictate. Any national government may decide not to comply with a decision of the elected Parliament .Of course, the country concerned might get drummed out of the brownies...



That goes without saying...

I feel as if I've been conned by an unpatriotic scoundrel.

As far as I'm concerned I 'felt' at the time that we joined the common market, EFTA etc so that we (Britain) could trade freely across Europe.
To safeguard jobs etc by getting rid of trade tarrifs.

I did not vote for the EU to make stupid laws (Straight Bananas etc).

Nor did I vote for the EU to impose it's own laws across Europe in general and Britain in particular.

OK so my 'Facts' may be a bit awry but I still feel conned.

If they did chuck us out of the Brownies we'd soon find our place with a bit of scouting around!

[astral276]

OK so my 'Facts' may be a bit awry but I still feel conned.

If they did chuck us out of the Brownies we'd soon find our place with a bit of scouting around!

What we were sold and what we got are two entirely different things; seriously 'Not As Described'.

We also p*ssed off a lot of our old world trading partners (e.g. New Zealand) by focusing our trade within the EU countries and forcing them to seek new markets for their goods. They may be reluctant to tie themselves back to a fickle partner (and who could blame them?).

[astral276]

The Liberal Democrats will "act as the guarantors" of more powers for Holyrood if Scotland rejects independence, according to their leader Nick Clegg.

Must be quite a relief for him to be able to make such promises again. It was quite a shock for him to find himself in a coalition and be expected to deliver on his party's promises. Now, again, he can promise whatever he likes (even turning water into wine) with no danger of ever having to do it.

[tonyreddevil]

thursday night at midnight towards 3.00 a.m. might be interesting

[astral276]

thursday night at midnight towards 3.00 a.m. might be interesting

Yeah, I'm on a promise that night.

[tonyreddevil]

good for you Mel