The EU Referendum.

[westlondoncarparts]

your post assumes a awful lot, for instance if we turn your hypothesise around, how are german car manufactures going to react if the eu tries to block trade with the uk,i think youl find there will be very little change with trading with the eu, we could also being out of the eu impose are own import tariffs on eu goods in favour of are own produced goods, which would stimulate are own manufacturing economy.the movement of uk citizens across the eu, well it always has been different for the uk we still need to produce are passports for entering or leaving the uk, as do eu members, the only change would be we would have to show are passport when traveling between say france and germany , i hardly find that a reason not to leave the eu,showing a passport at a border, is a pretty light reason for not regaining control of your own country, its absurd to think otherwise

My posting was not hypothesis but was a summary of the facts pertaining to the situation.

It is highly unlikely that the EU would try to block exports to the UK? Why would they do that? That runs contrary to the democratic principles that the EU is based upon.

It is unlikely that the EU would allow free movement of UK people to live and work throughout the EU post Brexit if the UK imposed restrictions on EU people coming to live and work in the UK.

The bottom line is that the only way for the British to avoid having anything to do with business related legislation passed in Brussels and in Strasbourg would be to stop trading with the EU.

[westlondoncarparts]

I guess where I'm coming from is that the EU won't do anything to make selling from the EU to the UK more difficult. They may however make it harder for the UK to sell to EU so UK business would probably lose out. The UK would presumably, under pressure from the press and pollsters, raise import duties on EU goods and then UK consumers would lose out.

The whole thing becomes moot if we're in the EEA but then we don't have control over borders.

The whole thing just doesn't quite square with the "out" narrative of border control and EU trade all being fine and dandy after an exit.

It is not possible to square the OUT narrative of border control with EU trade being largely unaffected post-Brexit. The Brexit side should make this clear to the electorate, assuming that most of them are even aware of the difficulties here which they probably are not. There is such a degree of interlocking between various aspects of the EU that it is very difficult to pick and mix according to what gives the best combination for a particular country - it is more a case of shift one thing and everything else shifts as well.

[sidthelamp]

My posting was not hypothesis but was a summary of the facts pertaining to the situation.

It is highly unlikely that the EU would try to block exports to the UK? Why would they do that? That runs contrary to the democratic principles that the EU is based upon.

It is unlikely that the EU would allow free movement of UK people to live and work throughout the EU post Brexit if the UK imposed restrictions on EU people coming to live and work in the UK.

The bottom line is that the only way for the British to avoid having anything to do with business related legislation passed in Brussels and in Strasbourg would be to stop trading with the EU.

​because of the example i gave ,i think i and others have now demonstrated just how undemocratic the eu is.

there is no such thing as free movement every time you pay for a ticket your logged who you are and were you going and when your coming back, ive already said which you failed to acknowledge to enter the uk and leave who ever you are you have to produce a passport, so whats left , we would have to produce a passport in the rest of the eu , so what, its hardly restricted movement , just the same as going anywhere else in the world, your also assuming the eu would have to enforce all the internal borders again just because the british are out and about, they might do that if the eu fails which is quite likely if the uk vote out, again so what, i dont mind showing my passport, your over enforcing the term freedoom of travel within the eu

rubbish, the eu ,the rest of europe will never stop trading with the uk , the eu will have to rewrite its own rules to trade with us , you and the remain camp seem to think we will cease to exist if we vote out, we wont be able to trade, we will become isolated, nothing is further from the truth, they need us more than we need them, its highly patronizing that people like yyou seem to think we cant as a nation survive outside of the eu

[westlondoncarparts]

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​because of the example i gave ,i think i and others have now demonstrated just how undemocratic the eu is.

there is no such thing as free movement every time you pay for a ticket your logged who you are and were you going and when your coming back, ive already said which you failed to acknowledge to enter the uk and leave who ever you are you have to produce a passport, so whats left , we would have to produce a passport in the rest of the eu , so what, its hardly restricted movement , just the same as going anywhere else in the world, your also assuming the eu would have to enforce all the internal borders again just because the british are out and about, they might do that if the eu fails which is quite likely if the uk vote out, again so what, i dont mind showing my passport, your over enforcing the term freedoom of travel within the eu

rubbish, the eu ,the rest of europe will never stop trading with the uk , the eu will have to rewrite its own rules to trade with us , you and the remain camp seem to think we will cease to exist if we vote out, we wont be able to trade, we will become isolated, nothing is further from the truth, they need us more than we need them, its highly patronizing that people like yyou seem to think we cant as a nation survive outside of the eu

The assumptions you project upon what I have said come from inside you and are not from me.

At present British people can go to live and work anywhere in the EU – irrespective of whether or not they have to show a passport at border control and irrespective of what records are kept of their travel by the travel operators. Such unrestricted travel might not continue if the UK imposed restrictions on movements of EU nationals post Brexit.

I did not say that the EU would have to reinstate all its internal borders post Brexit. If the EU wished to control British nationals entering the EU, the outer borders of the Schengen Area would be sufficient.

The EU did not rewrite its own rules to trade with the other non-EU countries that generated at least 1,702 billion Euros of goods exports in 2014 (excluding exports of services) so in the absence of a firm agreement to the contrary it might not be realistic to assume that it would rewrite its trading rules post Brexit for the much smaller level of exports that it sends to the UK. To assume that the EU would fall over itself to rewrite its trading rules post Brexit will be a really wild bet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...European_Union

https://fullfact.org/europe/where-does-eu-export/

I have never said that the UK would cease to exist if the UK left the EU.

I have never said that the UK could not survive outside the EU.

The EU is more democratic than the EU. There are no legions of unelected EU bureaucrats passing EU laws that are then imposed upon the British victims. There is not even one single unelected bureaucrat in Brussels or Strasbourg passing laws that are then imposed upon the British victims. Although we have a democratic right to vote in the UK there is no democratic right to representation in the UK that we get with the EU system of proportional representation. The UK first past the post system of election is undemocratic because it does not give a true reflection of the make up of the electorate.

Finally to give some balanced context to the debate about immigration:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6723006.html

[sidthelamp]

no assumptions from me

"At present British people can go to live and work anywhere in the EU – irrespective of whether or not they have to show a passport at border control and irrespective of what records are kept of their travel by the travel operators. Such unrestricted travel might not continue if the UK imposed restrictions on movements of EU nationals post Brexit. "



The EU is more democratic than the EU. There are no legions of unelected EU bureaucrats passing EU laws that are then imposed upon the British victims. There is not even one single unelected bureaucrat in Brussels or Strasbourg passing laws that are then imposed upon the British victims. Although we have a democratic right to vote in the UK there is no democratic right to representation in the UK that we get with the EU system of proportional representation. The UK first past the post system of election is undemocratic because it does not give a true reflection of the make up of the electorate.




yes we know all that i already said it, so you think if the uk imposed restrictions the eu might, impose restrictions , like they do in russia my that would be petty , you are demonstrating what a petty organisation the eu is, or do you mean we might have to show a passport, like i said before , so what , its not a big deal, or you trying to say because the eu might impose travel restrictions we should relinquish are final hold on sovereignty,

I did not say that the EU would have to reinstate all its internal borders post Brexit. If the EU wished to control British nationals entering the EU, the outer borders of the Schengen Area would be sufficient."

NO but your reasoning to the threat of travel restrictions could not be achieved otherwise, no it would not work controlling british nationals to outer borders, once in you could travel any were you wanted france to germany ect , if they wanted to stop the british they would have to impose all borders to differ between the english and the french for instance, thats why i say its not gonna happen , your scaremongering, to no end, even if they did make the british produce a passport , so what,!!!



The EU did not rewrite its own rules to trade with the other non-EU countries that generated at least 1,702 billion Euros of goods exports in 2014 (excluding exports of services) so in the absence of a firm agreement to the contrary it might not be realistic to assume that it would rewrite its trading rules post Brexit for the much smaller level of exports that it sends to the UK. To assume that the EU would fall over itself to rewrite its trading rules post Brexit will be a really wild bet.

no they did not , they just have a different set of rules , why because it suits them, if you and the remain camp think the eu will no trade with eu or rewrite it rules think again, your talking like we would have a situation like north/south korea typical scaremongering , the whole point of leaving is for us to regain control , we will trade with the rest of the world if the eu puts up a iron curtain, it simply wont happen.

"I have never said that the UK would cease to exist if the UK left the EU.

I have never said that the UK could not survive outside the EU."

good we might as well leave then,


The EU is more democratic than the EU. There are no legions of unelected EU bureaucrats passing EU laws that are then imposed upon the British victims. There is not even one single unelected bureaucrat in Brussels or Strasbourg passing laws that are then imposed upon the British victims. Although we have a democratic right to vote in the UK there is no democratic right to representation in the UK that we get with the EU system of proportional representation. The UK first past the post system of election is undemocratic because it does not give a true reflection of the make up of the electorate.

you mean the uk

i think my post at 277 shows how undemocratic the eu is,

youl be telling me next because we send unelected ministers to the eu thats democratic

[PATRIOT73]

This morning on my local radio station, they said there 5,000000 + ex pats living abroad who have a vote in the referendum. They interviewed 2 living in Spain. One had been there 20yrs & the other 12yrs.They said if we left the EU it would affect there rights under EU rules, i.e.,health,travel etc. In other words they will be voting for what affects them personally, not what affects the U.K. which is what the referendum is about

yup saw that report -on look norf re expats
these folk in my eyes r not allowed a vote
they fled these shores and giving up rites as a uk citizen [to vote at leest]
to coin a phrase uve made ur bed lay in it
but to quote 1 expat nuffin will change re health etc
e.g if a person falls ill in spain or eu state
u pay half n the eu state bills nhs n vice versa

now i see they re adjusted deadline fer registration in eu ref
they say conveniently i mite add that wwww crashed due to high demand
figure that i heard was 20% cudnt reg online
now i ask myself how many expats is there?
most expats will want in n dodgy dave will know this

plus accordin to most polls ive seen brexit is on roll


coincidence u decided

[westlondoncarparts]

In my last post, as pointed out, the typo should be corrected to say that I believe the EU to be more democratic that the UK.

We do not elect MPs to specific ministerial posts in the UK Parliament. We let the winning political party make those decisions. If you wish to consider that undemocratic then you are free to do so. If you then wish to say that there is a further level of undemocratic representation when those unelected UK Ministers are then send to Brussels to represent the the UK at the EU Council of Ministers, then you are free to be of that opinion also. Many people however would have a different opinion and would not consider that to be particularly undemocratic. But that does raise the question of cause and effect and whether we should be sorting out the Westminster political process before trying to sort out the EU political process.

[sidthelamp]

In my last post, as pointed out, the typo should be corrected to say that I believe the EU to be more democratic that the UK.

We do not elect MPs to specific ministerial posts in the UK Parliament. We let the winning political party make those decisions. If you wish to consider that undemocratic then you are free to do so. If you then wish to say that there is a further level of undemocratic representation when those unelected UK Ministers are then send to Brussels to represent the the UK at the EU Council of Ministers, then you are free to be of that opinion also. Many people however would have a different opinion and would not consider that to be particularly undemocratic. But that does raise the question of cause and effect and whether we should be sorting out the Westminster political process before trying to sort out the EU political process.

these unelected ministers dont represent anyone except the prime minister who appoints them, they do not report to parliament,and there by the people,the whole process is party political driven,ideology driven, he would be a fool to appoint some one who did not share the same ideology,

you can not sort out westminster till the cause as you put it , is eliminated , the eu decides who sits on its council , we dont as a people,

i should say the eu decides how the council is populated

[astral276]

coincidence u decided

I think it is safe to say that if it were thought the extension would have been to the benefit of the Leave campaign (most think it will benefit the Remain campaign) then the extension would not have happened.

[westlondoncarparts]

these unelected ministers dont represent anyone except the prime minister who appoints them, they do not report to parliament,and there by the people,the whole process is party political driven,ideology driven, he would be a fool to appoint some one who did not share the same ideology,

you can not sort out westminster till the cause as you put it , is eliminated , the eu decides who sits on its council , we dont as a people,

i should say the eu decides how the council is populated

The Government of the day and all of its Ministers are accountable to the Westminster Parliament and the processes of checks and balances at Westminster, irrespective of whether their decision making is at Westminster or at Brussels.

The UK Government decides which of its Ministers attend the various Council of Minister Groups in Brussels. The UK Government is not told by the Council in Brussels which Ministers can or cannot attend in Brussels.