The EU Referendum.

[westlondoncarparts]

It looks to me to be disingenuous to suggest that PetBazaar is being disingenuous when it seems that it is the context of the statistics that PetBazaar is commenting on that is more likely to be disingenuous. Looks like more out of context stats that people just bring in to support their arguments without checking their accuracy or their background.

https://medium.com/@seanjones11kbw/i...311#.tcgx4nn8m

http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-rel...154599925.html

PetBazaar’s query is quite justified in the context of what has been said in the Referendum Campaign so far by the LEAVE side.

To continue PetBazaar’s argument, the new British Living Wage is almost the highest of the minimum wages in all the European countries in this table, beaten only by the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (significantly) and by the Republic of Ireland (marginally), all achieved under British sovereignty without any of those nasty people in Brussels and Strasbourg (some of whom are elected by the British electorate) dictating to us what to do. That should really help to reduce the level of inward migration to the UK. Health warning – the table shows minimum wages converted to Euros which will change when the values of local currencies fluctuate against the Euro.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...h)_YB16-II.png

[sidthelamp]

It looks to me to be disingenuous to suggest that PetBazaar is being disingenuous when it seems that it is the context of the statistics that PetBazaar is commenting on that is more likely to be disingenuous. Looks like more out of context stats that people just bring in to support their arguments without checking their accuracy or their background.

https://medium.com/@seanjones11kbw/i...311#.tcgx4nn8m

http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-rel...154599925.html

PetBazaar’s query is quite justified in the context of what has been said in the Referendum Campaign so far by the LEAVE side.

To continue PetBazaar’s argument, the new British Living Wage is almost the highest of the minimum wages in all the European countries in this table, beaten only by the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (significantly) and by the Republic of Ireland (marginally), all achieved under British sovereignty without any of those nasty people in Brussels and Strasbourg (some of whom are elected by the British electorate) dictating to us what to do. That should really help to reduce the level of inward migration to the UK. Health warning – the table shows minimum wages converted to Euros which will change when the values of local currencies fluctuate against the Euro.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...h)_YB16-II.png

what a lot of waffle

there is no argument that uk wages are higher than most eu wages the point was its a tiny fraction of of laws that apply to the uk imposed by the eu yet again the significant point you fail to pick up on,the whole point of the post was laws which we make are better for us than laws made outside the uk,i fail to see what any conversions to euros have, were not spending euros in the uk , as i said the jist of the post was about who makes laws for us and who benefits.

your game is going down hill stay frosty

[westlondoncarparts]

what a lot of waffle

there is no argument that uk wages are higher than most eu wages the point was its a tiny fraction of of laws that apply to the uk imposed by the eu yet again the significant point you fail to pick up on,the whole point of the post was laws which we make are better for us than laws made outside the uk,i fail to see what any conversions to euros have, were not spending euros in the uk , as i said the jist of the post was about who makes laws for us and who benefits.

your game is going down hill stay frosty

The point about Euros and the exchange rate was to avoid the misrepresentation that most of the players in the EU Referendum Campaign are doing in their presentations. Comparisons will move with exchange rates.

One of the missing discussions in the Referendum Campaign is whether any of the laws that get passed by the British legislators in Brussels and Strasbourg are good and give us added value. Seems a bit odd to me that some people just want to thrown out of the window everything that the British legislators there pass - especially when the British legislators in the Council of Ministers are the same people who pass laws back in the Palace of Westminster in London. Bit of a lack of joined up thinking there. Or maybe some Brits think that it would be a sensible way of doing business for British Ministers to reject in London laws which they themselves passed in Brussels? Something of a spaghetti tangle with all this.

[PetBazaar]

that slightly disingenuous of you , holiday entitlement is traditionally worked out with employers, with a minimum of government intervention ie minimum entitlement .

its very unfair of you to compare holiday entitlement to the whole raft of eu regulations/laws ,you made no distinction,which we can not revoke we have to apply them as you well know,

no one has taken our country away, the point is we want to govern are own country , and not be treated as tenants by absentee landlords, i seem to remember the scottish government having to deal with a similar problem.

Again, my reply was purely in the context of the original post, but it would appear that we agree, given the lack of a counter argument, that the graphic rather undermines one of "outs" other arguments, that of laws being imposed on us. Unless I'm missing something it clearly shows that if we want to ignore EU law in favour of our own then we are able to do so when it suits us.

With regard any other EU law, presumably you would agree too that the EU is not a sovereign entity and therefore our parliament and courts are free to overrule any law that they wish. The logical conclusion of this being that if they choose not to it's because it suits our own government to keep it that way.

I do certainly agree with you though that no one has taken our country away. Perhaps, as an "outer", you can shed some light on why I keep hearing it as a soundbite. It's almost like some people would like us to believe that it has been.

[sidthelamp]

Again, my reply was purely in the context of the original post, but it would appear that we agree, given the lack of a counter argument, that the graphic rather undermines one of "outs" other arguments, that of laws being imposed on us. Unless I'm missing something it clearly shows that if we want to ignore EU law in favour of our own then we are able to do so when it suits us.

With regard any other EU law, presumably you would agree too that the EU is not a sovereign entity and therefore our parliament and courts are free to overrule any law that they wish. The logical conclusion of this being that if they choose not to it's because it suits our own government to keep it that way.

I do certainly agree with you though that no one has taken our country away. Perhaps, as an "outer", you can shed some light on why I keep hearing it as a soundbite. It's almost like some people would like us to believe that it has been.

seems tome your twisting the intent of patriots point , that were better off without eu laws, his point in the graph is simplistic , but the point is clear, never the less we did have the working time directive imposed on us , which was argued against most severely by the government of the day, nevertheless it was imposed upon us, if you had bothered to read the eu time directive you would see it regulates minimum holiday allowance , nothing more, the uk government implemented it and a extra week, which does not mean they ignored the eu directive,

no eu member can over rule any eu law or its higher court,

I do certainly agree with you though that no one has taken our country away. Perhaps, as an "outer", you can shed some light on why I keep hearing it as a soundbite. It's almost like some people would like us to believe that it has been.

i already did

[sidthelamp]

The point about Euros and the exchange rate was to avoid the misrepresentation that most of the players in the EU Referendum Campaign are doing in their presentations. Comparisons will move with exchange rates.

One of the missing discussions in the Referendum Campaign is whether any of the laws that get passed by the British legislators in Brussels and Strasbourg are good and give us added value. Seems a bit odd to me that some people just want to thrown out of the window everything that the British legislators there pass - especially when the British legislators in the Council of Ministers are the same people who pass laws back in the Palace of Westminster in London. Bit of a lack of joined up thinking there. Or maybe some Brits think that it would be a sensible way of doing business for British Ministers to reject in London laws which they themselves passed in Brussels? Something of a spaghetti tangle with all this.

your still deliberately trying to deceive people by saying uk ministers represent the uk , this is what i answered to you before


these ministers are not elected to the council they are appointed by national leaders in are case the prime minister , ministers in the uk are appointed in the uk government they are not elected , they maybe elected MPs , but they are not elected but appointed as ministers , the british people have no say who becomes a minister in the uk parliament, nor do they elect eu council members, thats twice removed from the control of british people , so what exactly and who do they represent , there not allowed to represent uk policies only vote on eu policies, we do not vote as a people on eu policies nor do we elect the people who vote on eu policies,yet what is voted on directly effects us the people and overrides national laws, im really struggling to find anything democratic and accountable about how the eu council works,

[westlondoncarparts]

your still deliberately trying to deceive people by saying uk ministers represent the uk , this is what i answered to you before


these ministers are not elected to the council they are appointed by national leaders in are case the prime minister , ministers in the uk are appointed in the uk government they are not elected , they maybe elected MPs , but they are not elected but appointed as ministers , the british people have no say who becomes a minister in the uk parliament, nor do they elect eu council members, thats twice removed from the control of british people , so what exactly and who do they represent , there not allowed to represent uk policies only vote on eu policies, we do not vote as a people on eu policies nor do we elect the people who vote on eu policies,yet what is voted on directly effects us the people and overrides national laws, im really struggling to find anything democratic and accountable about how the eu council works,

I am not trying to mislead anybody.

In the absence of a Constitution in the UK, it is custom and practice for the political party that has the largest number of MPs to be asked to form a Government by the Queen, for the leader of that party to become the Prime Minister, and for the Prime Minister to appoint the Ministers of his Government, and for the Prime Minister to send those Ministers to Brussels to represent the UK at the Council of Ministers. The British electorate know this when they vote at a General Election. You are the only person I have come across in my life who seems to take the view that this is undemocratic. You are entitled to have such a view that is different to mine but please do not say that I am trying to mislead deliberately when I am not.

This week we will have to deal with the thorny subject of what happens to the unelected British bureaucrats (UK Civil Service) after Brexit. It is too much to think about. Having got rid of the unelected EU Civil Service (EU Commission) which drafts laws for the EU Council of Ministers and the EU Parliament (who have all been elected democratically somewhere within the EU Member States’ political processes), we cannot then have an unelected UK Civil Service drafting the laws of the British Parliament. The current British Civil Servants will all have to go so we can elect a new Civil Service democratically. I dread to think how we can do that without causing absolute chaos at the same time as negotiating exit from the EU. And what do we do about the unelected House of Lords without which no UK laws can be passed? And how do we square all of this with the fact that the British rejected moving from first past the post House of Commons electoral representation to a form of AV representation in the recent referendum? Although what was on offer was not the best form of proportional representation, it was more democratic than what we have now. How do we square the British having voted democratically for undemocratic electoral representation with a Brexit vote to move away from the more democratic EU form of representation because people say that the EU is not democratic? The spaghetti tangle gets worse.

[PATRIOT73]

will we start the ball rolling


beleave in britain

[astral276]

Warsi says she is switching from Leave to Remain (though Leave says they were never aware that she was supporting them and had refused to join when invited) because she didn't like a poster. Is she too thick to understand that the referendum is not about a campaign or an individual but about the the future of the whole UK?

[astral276]

Warsi:
[QUOTE] And instead we have reverted to a campaign that says: ‘The Turks are coming, the Syrians are coming, the refugees are coming, the Muslims are coming, the terrorists are coming.[/QUOTE]

In case she wasn't aware... they are already here.