Don't want to spoil the other thread - for Sid & those interested

[Gothicina]

the people i got mr Oscar off were giving him away because the daughter had just had a baby and mr oscar is a hand full they had had lots of people calling and viewing the dog ALL so called dealers and rescue home staff wanting to populate there kennels for proffit

i did vist a few of these rescue homes not impressed at all the amount of money they wanted with the conditions atached really put me off and others i came across in that month, the problem i see is they and the breeders want to monopolise the whole dog thing for proffit to fund there rural life styles, the dogs are a means to a end, in some cases there reluctant to even let a animal go because the kennel is half empty, the best crack i heard was we need to fund a animal sycologist

dog theft is just like any other theft its upsetting distressing but there are ways to reduce this happening.

yes some puppy farmers do give the dog a wash and sell it on with the price these people ask for the poor little mights its highly unlikely the dog will be going back in the trade or to some other nasty end just some poor mug who parts with the cash to give the poor little might a good home,

its all a bit subjective anyway what is a good home ? is a working farm dog that lives out side a good home ? is a pampered pooch in a good home were its a replacement for the kids who have flown the nest

i dont judge owners unless i see out right cruelty i might disagree with a owner who never lets the dog of the lead even in the middle of nowere or feeds them ten times a day so there so fat they cant walk i see these things every day, i see working dogs every day i see hunting dogs every day, i see dogs often with 3 legs, unless its starving beaten [ as opposed to controlled which again is a matter of judgement ] i tend to mind my own business

What is a good home? Well obviously NOT the ones listed below!
http://www.petnet.co.uk/dogs/news/la...orRehomingDogs


Don't forget who the biggest online free ad service is run by,
even adverts that break their rules like those for banned breeds, take days to get pulled & only if reported.

There are some excellent rescues out there, & there are some that are not, again there seems to be little regulation. I don't agree with all the terms & conditions that some impose, but it's easy to criticise, but maybe not to see the sorts of things they deal with on a regular basis

PLEASE DO NOT WATCH IF YOU ARE EASILY UPSET

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KOT07KmtxrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag6Lyn8A1GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjejLH2rY58

[sidthelamp]

well the first video i watched not far from me but i dont know the guy looked on face value pretty bad but lets take a few points scotty dogs with mange dont all scotty dogs lose hair and suffer with skin complaints what ever conditions they live in .

no heating in the pens, then were walked along five or so pens at least two had infra red lamps running for the pups what tempreture was it the day the vid was filmed ?

dogs bowls with no food or water thats a bit of a low shot you must admit yourself you could put ten bowls of food down in a day each bowl would last the time it takes to clean it same with the water non of the dogs looked under fed to me all were full of energy collie bouncing of the walls thats what they do ive got 5 of them what point was he making there, my dogs come home from working all day they bounce of the back door going round in circles trying to get at the cables its normal behavouir for them relentless energy

dog poo on the floors sure when you gotta go you gotta go they were not liying in it or covered in it the pens were cleaned out maybe not as much as some folk would like not as much as i clean out but i see no overly suffering,

the old boy who was a stud take him indoors give him to a new home again he was not suffring

the dogs out side full of energy nothing wrong there

the dogs with what appeared bad eyes were they being treated ? have they been treated ? is there a treatment ? were they suffuring did not look like it to me,

the problem with shock videos like this is there meant to shock there not abjective they did not interview the owner so the questions ive asked were not asked, did they have permission to film ?

do i keep my dogs in better condition my working dogs live in a out building feed and watered twice a day fit and healthy i dont breed from them i clean up more that what appears in the vid but that could be misleading so in the first vid i see no ill treatment or neglect what i do see is shock tactics that does not answer the questions i have raised nor did the owner have a chance to defend himself,

rescue centres

well thats a bit misleading not all the dogs are rescued that reside in centres, are they better conditions than the breeding pound i just looked at marginaly the ones i saw recently all had empty bowls for the reasons i have given, no heating i could see in any of them, very fancy shops though were they want you to part with your money concrete floors with newspaper in every one dog poo in every one they were still all cleaned regular the pens would vary in size from smaller to bigger with various numbers of dogs in them all in good health i could see, exersize yards were of various sizes more attention given to parking which was very noticable some staff were obviously very keen dog lovers some seemed indifferent

even at the border collie rescue place there is not a lot of difference in the way dogs live while there in a pound. there not meant to be homes there half way houses till there rehomed although the way they impose restrictions on folk looking for a new dog to them its a wonder any do get rehomed the border collie rescue place were the best in that respect and i would take a dog of there hands if the situation arose

it also seemed to me weather puppy farm or rescue centre the dogs played second fiddle to the income they could generate for the owners with no exception. were as the puppy farms make no bones about being in business the rescue centres border on mis leading much more so if reg as a charity

the rescue centres i visited were not a main business more of a side line or hobby the owners did have other means of income , i found it odd they all without fail had these power conditions even to the point of vetting your home unanounced asking in all cases hundreds of pounds for a dog and often unwilling to let that dog go, all seems like a bit of a strange game these folk play,

[Gothicina]

I think you'll find they were Westies & Bichons, & they don't all suffer from skin complaints. Keeping them in dirty conditions means they will never heal, breeding from them in that condition will further damage their chances of healing.

Empty food bowls maybe.
In most of those images the water bowls were not just empty they were dry,
that should not happen.

I believe the collies were rescued from a farm in Wales, that footage was very recent.

I think BC Rescue is in Staffordshire I haven't been there, but my niece adopted hers from Wiccaweys which have an excellent reputation.

I haven't visited any of the Rescues in Wales so I know little about how they keep the dogs,
I have however visited in some cases more than once, Battersea at Brands Hatch, Blue Cross Felixstowe,
Wood Green Godmanchester, & Dogs Trust Snetterton & Canterbury.

In none of them did I see dogs left without water, in dirty uncleaned pens, & without bedding.

All of them make sure the dogs get both on & off leash exercise daily, & interaction with other dogs as well as humans.

The charge which is in the range of £100 to £150 includes, microchipping,
neutering (you try & get a dog speyed for less than £100 in most parts of the country),
& vaccinations. I believe they all also offer support for life if you have a problem,
I know Dogs Trust certainly do.

[sidthelamp]

ok ive watched all 3 vids in not one case did i see a animal being abused, or sufuring from malnutrition i would not keep my animals that way im sure you dont, what these people who unlawfully tresspass and steal dont seem to realise is border collies are working dogs they do not on the whole make pets they thrive to work they thrive in conditions pet owners turn there noises up at, these dogs are not pets applying the human condition to them is harmful and can be deemed cruel i have a friend who did keep a border collie as a pet in a suburb of london the dog had a postage stamp garden to play in would get a walk once a day and the odd holiday in wales , im really not sure who was the most nurotic the dog or the owner the owner would never let the dog of the lead even in my garden which most folk call a small field, if the dog got near the boundry it was called back it was not allowed to explore without the owner nipping out and calling it back and they wonder why the dog had so called behavour problems it was slowing going mad because it had no freedom typical of BCs what are kept as pets so is that cruel ? certainly not deemed cruel because it slept on a carpet indoors and was shampooed once a week but to me thats more cruel than the dog living in the barn were it can interact with the wildlife in there 24 hrs aday or when its placed in there , they need constant stimulation , the chase, being commanded on a task , there super intelligent learn fast and need to do so, they can also be aggresive because of this. they protect, they fight, they are also very loyal, jealous, and loving animals a complicated bag of highly strung bone and muscle. for these reasons they dont make pets nor should they be rescued on to a suburb inviroment mental cruelity is just as much as a problem for these dogs as living in a shed to called upon to work ,

the one i have that lives in the house all the time is a house dog not a pet he interacts with the other dogs through the day, goes were ever i go he probably seen more of the country than most of the locals round here put together he also works , you can not tire him out ,you can be cruel to be kind, but you can also be kind to be cruel,

[Gothicina]

The rescuers didn't unlawfully trespass & steal.

Those BC were not working dogs, they were breeding machines, who were confined at all times, & that wooden crate was considerably smaller than a postage stamp garden.

The person who had them was persuaded to hand those ones over, they were the lucky ones,
those who remain are still kept in those conditions.

Many of the ex puppy farm brood bitches & stud dogs are now being handed over at the end of their "useful life".

[sidthelamp]

The rescuers didn't unlawfully trespass & steal.

Those BC were not working dogs, they were breeding machines, who were confined at all times, & that wooden crate was considerably smaller than a postage stamp garden.

The person who had them was persuaded to hand those ones over, they were the lucky ones,
those who remain are still kept in those conditions.

Many of the ex puppy farm brood bitches & stud dogs are now being handed over at the end of their "useful life".

so they said at the top of the vid shame the owner was not around when they took the animals

i dont belive the dogs were confined at all times

persuaded ! he was looking for new homes no doubt for the dogs which is common when they have no need for them "costs money see bach "

as has always been the case in my experience of living in sheep dog world my first BC was a worn out breeder who was old and did adapt to home living lived a further seven years till the C got here

[Gothicina]

At least these days at least some of them are starting to give them up,
not just dumping, or putting a bullet in them.

My Fudge & his litter brother (collie crosses) were dumped (in Wales) they were 5 weeks old, luckily they were taken in by one of the rescues you seem to despise so much.

I doubt you & I will agree on what is cruelty, I do see cruelty in those videos,
dogs without access to water confined in dirty small spaces with untreated medical conditions,
breeding litter after litter like machines.

This is not about dogs, working or otherwise, being kept outside, & its not about the suitability or not of a border collie being a pet.

It's about dogs of all breeds being used as breeding machines with no thought for their welfare. then being discarded like rubbish.

It's about there being no regulations to protect the animals, or the Buyers, when it comes to animals advertised via free ads, in the newspapers or online.